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Displaying results 241 - 270 of 948 in total
Conference Session
High School Engineering Programs, Curriculum, and Evaluation
Collection
2011 ASEE Annual Conference & Exposition
Authors
Kelly B Crittenden, Louisiana Tech University; Galen E. Turner III, Louisiana Tech University; James D. Nelson, Louisiana Tech University; Jane A. Petrus, Louisiana Tech University
Tagged Divisions
K-12 & Pre-College Engineering
AC 2011-2156: BUILDING RELATIONSHIPS BY AVOIDING THE ”SHOW-AND-GO”: A STEM PROJECT FOR HIGH SCHOOLSKelly B Crittenden, PhD, Louisiana Tech University Kelly Crittenden earned his BS and PhD in BioMedical Engineering from Louisiana Tech University in 1996 and 2001 respectively. He is an Associate Professor of Engineering, and holds the Harrelson Professorship in Engineering. Dr Crittenden has focused much of his effort in the arena of Engineering Education, and multidisciplinary design.Prof. Galen E. Turner III, Louisiana Tech UniversityDr. James D. Nelson, Louisiana Tech UniversityJane A Petrus, Louisiana Tech University Jane Petrus serves as the Student Success Specialist for the College of Engineering and Science at
Conference Session
Middle School Engineering Programs, Curriculum, and Evaluation
Collection
2011 ASEE Annual Conference & Exposition
Authors
Jed S. Lyons, University of South Carolina
Tagged Divisions
K-12 & Pre-College Engineering
level students from STEM disciplines, knownas GK-12 Fellows (Fellows), to improve their communication and teaching skills while enrichingSTEM content and instruction in K-12 schools. Through about 300 projects in more than 140different universities throughout the United States and Puerto Rico1, thousands of graduatestudents majoring in engineering, science, mathematics and other technology-related majors haveinteracted with hundreds of thousands of K-12 students. The characteristics and focus of GK-12projects vary by site; however most follow one of two operational designs2. Some projects use an“Exposition Model” that has Fellows completing presentations in many schools or districts overthe course of a year. Other projects follow a “Classroom
Conference Session
Collaborations, Accreditation and Articulation Issues for International Engineering Education
Collection
2011 ASEE Annual Conference & Exposition
Authors
Morteza Sadat-Hossieny, Northern Kentucky University; Elizabeth Leibach, Northern Kentucky University
Tagged Divisions
International
22.946.1 c American Society for Engineering Education, 2011 International Articulation Issues an Engineering Technology Education Response to Global ChallengesAs part of Northern Kentucky University‟s (NKU) strategic plan in 2007-2012, the universitystated – that increasing globalization will require the university to become more international inscope. In accordance with this policy the engineering technology division has undertakeninternational student recruitment efforts and articulation agreements with universities abroad.This paper will discuss challenges in formulating such articulation agreements while maintainingthe integrity of existing accredited programs. The paper explains what
Conference Session
Computer Science and Information Technology in K-12 Engineering
Collection
2011 ASEE Annual Conference & Exposition
Authors
Meltem Alemdar, Georgia Institute of Technology; Tony Docal, Georgia Institute of Technology
Tagged Divisions
K-12 & Pre-College Engineering
user to be connected to a computer. In 2009, NASA awarded Georgia Tech a contract to develop online professionaldevelopment (PD) courses for STEM teachers. One of the goals of this project is to supportteachers’ professional development through an online curriculum designed to enable teachers tolearn skills for integrating technology into the classroom. Traditionally, this type of professionallearning has been conducted face-to-face in workshops and summer institutes led by schoolsystems, colleges and universities, educational support agencies, and private corporations.However, this model only reaches teachers who are either within commuting distance of theservice provider or are willing and able to travel to a remote site for sometimes
Conference Session
NSF Grantees Poster Session
Collection
2011 ASEE Annual Conference & Exposition
Authors
John J. Duffy, University of Massachusetts, Lowell; Linda Barrington, University of Massachusetts, Lowell; Manuel A Heredia, University of Massachusetts, Lowell
Tagged Topics
NSF Grantees
all years in the curriculum resulted in an even higher percentage ofagreement. Similar results were obtained in response to the statement that service and academiccourse work should be integrated.The codes of conduct of several engineering professional societies as well as evidence from thiscase study supports the principle that service should be considered part of the engineeringprofession. Integrating service-learning within existing technical courses is a concrete way oftraining students in how and why engineers perform such professional community service.IntroductionIs service considered part of the engineering profession? If service is part of the profession,should it not be considered integral to college programs leading to engineering
Conference Session
Capstone Projects and Experiential Learning
Collection
2011 ASEE Annual Conference & Exposition
Authors
Chad M. Laux, Purdue University, West Lafayette; Abram Walton, Ph.D., Purdue University; Amy S. Van Epps, Purdue University, West Lafayette; Kimberly Marie Deranek, Nova Southeastern University; Darrel L. Sandall, Purdue University; Rick L. Homkes, Purdue University; Sarah E. Leach, Purdue University, Statewide Technology
Tagged Divisions
Engineering Technology
upon this premise. Interdisciplinary understanding has been defined as the capacity to integrate knowledge from more than one discipline for cognitive purposes14. According to Kelly14 the advantage of interdisciplinary learning is to create understanding that will have been unlikely through a single discipline. The blurring of disciplinary boundaries, as stated by Burghhardt and Page 22.735.5 Hacker16 and Kelly14 advocates for development of integrated STEM curriculum and is a premise that guides educators in developing an engineering technology degree.Purdue Engineering Technology The field of engineering technology has been well
Conference Session
Issues Affecting Engineering Program Development
Collection
2011 ASEE Annual Conference & Exposition
Authors
Miguel Angel Ramos, University of Houston; Lauren Chapman, Boston College; Mac Cannady, Boston College; Enrique Barbieri, University of Houston
Tagged Divisions
Engineering Technology
scientific analysis andmathematical modeling and (iii) there has been a subsequent reduction in hands-on, laboratoryoriented, experiential learning, and courses delving into engineering design (synthesis asopposed to analysis) and engineering operations have been deemphasized and relegated toperhaps one or two courses in the curriculum. At the same time, the field of engineeringtechnology has expanded to the baccalaureate level with an emphasis on laboratory experience,practice-oriented lectures, and experiential learning. The authors further assert that each of thesedevelopments has occurred within the context of increasing constraints on available credit hoursfor engineering-specific courses due to expanding core requirements in mathematics
Conference Session
Mechanical Engineering Laboratories I
Collection
2011 ASEE Annual Conference & Exposition
Authors
Gregory J. Michna, South Dakota State University; Stephen Gent, South Dakota State University
Tagged Divisions
Mechanical Engineering
mechanical engineering students at South Dakota State University isThermo Fluids Laboratory. The purpose of this one-credit course, usually taken in a student’slast semester before graduation, is to enrich the student’s understanding of thermodynamics,fluid mechanics and heat transfer principles in an experimental laboratory setting. TheMechanical Engineering Department at SDSU recognizes the importance of laboratorycoursework in the curriculum, so a project was undertaken to improve student learning outcomesfrom this course. The goals of this project were to formally assess how well the current ThermoFluids Laboratory course achieves the desired course outcomes and to update the course contentand equipment based upon the findings of the
Conference Session
Innovative College-Industry Partnerships for the Future
Collection
2011 ASEE Annual Conference & Exposition
Authors
Lueny Morell, Hewlett-Packard Corporation; Martina Y. Trucco, Hewlett-Packard Labs; Francisco Enrique Andrade, Hewlett-Packard Mexico
Tagged Divisions
College Industry Partnerships
AC 2011-296: AN INDUSTRY-GOVERNMENT-ACADEMIA PARTNERSHIPTO DEVELOP TALENT AND TECHNOLOGYLueny Morell, Hewlett-Packard Corporation Lueny Morell, M.S., P.E., is Program Manager in the Strategic Innovation and Research Services Office of Hewlett Packard Laboratories in Palo Alto, California. She is part of the team facilitating co-innovation with government, partners and universities. From 2002-2008, she was in charge of developing engineer- ing/science curriculum innovation initiatives worldwide in support of HPL research and technology areas and former director of HPL University Relations for Latin America and the Caribbean in charge of build- ing research and education collaborations with universities throughout the
Conference Session
Active and Project-Based Learning
Collection
2011 ASEE Annual Conference & Exposition
Authors
John S. Lamancusa, Pennsylvania State University, University Park; Laura L. Pauley, Pennsylvania State University, University Park
Tagged Divisions
Mechanical Engineering
University (M.S. in 1985 and Ph.D. in 1988). She can be contacted at LPauley@psu.edu . Page 22.469.1 c American Society for Engineering Education, 2011  Development and Implementation of an Intermediate Design Course Using Active LearningAbstractSix years ago, the Mechanical and Nuclear Engineering Department at Penn State, after manyheated debates, approved a major curriculum change that included adding a required course inDesign Methodology. This action was taken to better align with ABET curriculum objectives,particularly in the area of Design. The course was designed from a
Conference Session
Design Education II
Collection
2011 ASEE Annual Conference & Exposition
Authors
Ronald J. Bennett, Univeristy of Saint Thomas; Elaine R. Millam, Univeristy of Saint Thomas
Tagged Divisions
Manufacturing
, coach and educator. She has worked over 30 years as a leader in public, private, and non-profit sectors; most recently as the head of Organizational Effectiveness and Leadership Effectiveness at Honeywell, International. She has earned graduate degrees in Educational Psychology, Industrial Relations and Organizational Leadership. She is an author of several publications and two published books. Her specialty is developing leadership capacity to create high performing organizations. She focuses on styles and behaviors that fuel significant and sustainable change in leaders and organizations. She uses an integrated model that balances the inside-out and outside-in to developing leaders
Conference Session
Multidisciplinary Technical Session
Collection
2011 ASEE Annual Conference & Exposition
Authors
Mahmoud K. Quweider, University of Texas, Brownsville
Tagged Divisions
Multidisciplinary Engineering
,” Trends and Issues in Crime and Criminal Justice, no. 118, Australian Inst. of Criminology; www.aic.gov.au/publications/tandi/index3.html.[8]. C.E. Irvine, S.-K. Chin, and D.A. Frincke, “Integrating Security into the Curriculum,” Computer, vol. 31, no. 12, 1998, pp. 25–30. 10. G. Shpantzer and T. Ipsen, “Law Enforcement Challenges in Digital Forensics,” Proc. 6th Nat’l Colloquium Information Systems Security Education, NCISSE Colloquium Press, 2002.[9]. Cohen, J. Guidelines for establishing undergraduate bioinformatics courses. J. Sci. Edu. Tech. 12, 4 (Dec. 2003), 449–456.[10]. Cohen, J. Bioinformatics: An introduction for computer scientists. ACM Comput. Surv. 36, 2 (June 2004), 122–158
Conference Session
FPD VIII: Crossing Bridges and Easing Transitions into the First Year
Collection
2011 ASEE Annual Conference & Exposition
Authors
Bernard White, George Mason University; Eileen Patricia Mazzone, George Mason University; Vicki L. Dominick, George Mason University
Tagged Divisions
First-Year Programs
hands-on activities, and (7) encouragestudent reflection." With these criteria in mind, we created our curriculum to include thefollowing activities: College Activity Purpose/Description Readiness Skill Area Cognitive Strategies – Critical Thinking In an effort to expose students to the A student’s ability to idea of thinking at a higher level, we develop and apply posed open-ended questions similar to higher level thinking those they may encounter in a college skills such as curiosity, class. In order to respond effectively, analysis, and synthesis
Collection
2011 Fall ASEE Middle Atlantic Section Conference
Authors
Tony Kerzmann; Gavin Buxton; Maria V. Kalevitch
School ofEngineering Mathematics and Science (SEMS) energy curriculum. In the fall semester of the2010 school year at Robert Morris University, SEMS began laying the groundwork for whatis now an alternative energy minor. This is an interdisciplinary minor that was developedthrough the combined efforts of engineering and science faculty. The curriculum was basedon the currently available expertise in environmental science and engineering. Theinitiative began as a collaborative effort and after multiple meetings and the consent of theuniversity registrar; the minor was offered to the students and has achieved a verypromising enrollment in the first semester of its offering. The alternative energy minor iscomprised of three capstone courses and two
Collection
2011 Northeast Section Meeting
Authors
Gaetan Garcia; Matthew R. Stein
; FromTele-Laboratory to E-learning in Automation Curricula at the University of Pisa, IFAC World Congress2005, 20059: Euan Lindsay, Dikai Liu, Steve Murray and David Lowe; Remote Laboratories in EngineeringEducation: Trends in Students’ Perceptions, Proceedings of the 2007 AAEE Conference, 200710: Dimitris Karadimas and Kostas Efstathiou; An Integrated Educational Platform Implementing Real,Remote Lab-Experiments for Electrical Engineering Courses, Journal of Computers,2(2),200711: Jan Machotka, Zorica Nedic and Özdemir Gol; Collaborative Learning in the Remote LaboratoryNetLab, International Institute of Informatics and Systemics, 200712: David Lowe, Steve Murray, Euan Lindsay, Dikai Liu, and Chris Bright; Reflecting ProfessionalReality in Remote
Conference Session
Two Year-to-Four Year Transfer Topics Part II
Collection
2011 ASEE Annual Conference & Exposition
Authors
Kenneth Wayne Santarelli, California State University, Fresno; S. Shelley, U.S. Air Force; Dhushy Sathianathan, California State University, Long Beach; Mark K. Smith, California State University, Long Beach, College of Continuing and Professional Education
Tagged Divisions
Two Year College Division
and curriculum delivered is defined with the assistance of the industriesproviding the job market (taken within the context of what is available from the university).In their article the authors conclude by suggesting two areas where customers (employers)should be allowed to penetrate the educational system in order to facilitate integration. Theseareas are curriculum development and information sharing. Curriculum development isrepresented in the Figure 3 model as being influenced by the customer needs. Informationsharing is facilitated bi-directionally through the development of an active industry advisoryboard that works with the lead university and the partner community colleges
Conference Session
Aerospace Teaching and Learning I
Collection
2011 ASEE Annual Conference & Exposition
Authors
Lance W. Traub, Embry Riddle Aeronautical University
Tagged Divisions
Aerospace
within the framework of an experimentalaerodynamics curriculum is presented in Ref. [1]. An iterative formulation was used to developthe program as well as supporting classes. Consequently, AE 411 was created as a technical elective to give undergraduate students theopportunity to experience the gamete of issues commonly seen in an open ended problem; clearidentification of the problem, potential methods of solution, selection and implementation of asolution method and evaluation of results. The problem could range from the design ofequipment to investigating an aerodynamic device, etc. Additionally, the use of numericalmethods for experimental validation was also emphasized, where applicable. AE 411 wasdeveloped as a project based follow on
Collection
2011 Spring ASEE Middle Atlantic Section Conference
Authors
Carlos D. Barreiro; John L. Schmalzel
theeffort of all the students that worked on the development of this project.References[1] Sukumaran, B., Jahan, K., Dorland, D., Everett, J., Kadlowec, J., Gephardt, Z., Chin, S.“Engineering Clinics: An Integration of Research into the Undergraduate EngineeringCurriculum”. Council on Undergraduate Research. March 2006. pp 115-121.[2] Delia C.C, Barreiro C.D, Jansson P.M, Schmalzel J.L., Whitten K. “EE Students ConductPhotovoltaic R&D for Industry in Electrical Engineering Curriculum”. ASEE AnnualConference, Vancouver, BC. March 2011. [3] Marchese, A., Chen, J., Schmalzel, J.L. “A Venture Capital Fund for UndergraduateEngineering Students at Rowan University”. Journal of Engineering Education. Vol. 90, No. 4,pp. 589-596.[4] Marks, K., Pillon
Conference Session
Two-Year College Special Topics Potpourri
Collection
2011 ASEE Annual Conference & Exposition
Authors
Farzin Heidari, Texas A&M University, Kingsville
Tagged Divisions
Two Year College Division
Special Occupations and DFTG 2402 Machine Drafting.The Northern Mexico technical colleges show some evidence of computer aided design, 3Dmodeling and assembly drawing in their programs. This fact is more evident in the InternationalIndustry Institute located in Saltillo Mexico. In an advanced manufacturing program a minimumof 18 hours of drafting and design courses is included in the degree plan. In the Northern Mexicocolleges the maximum number of related design courses for the CAM process does not reach 18hours. Also, the curriculum used in different colleges is totally different and there is nostandardization evident in technical curricula taught in the Northern Mexico technical colleges.Implementing required technology coursework in advanced
Conference Session
SPECIAL SESSION: Interdisciplinary Course Design Opportunities for Chemical Engineers
Collection
2011 ASEE Annual Conference & Exposition
Authors
Jeffrey A Nason, Oregon State University; Bill J. Brooks, Oregon State University; Milo Koretsky, Oregon State University
Tagged Divisions
Chemical Engineering
other hand, they report that innovative instruction can lead toimprovements in student beliefs. A project based design (graphic, industrial, interiorphotographic and fashion) curriculum, and a business curriculum promoting self reflection bothresulted in statistically significant increases in deep approach scores as measured by the SPQ.Although conventional lecture-based educational practices tend to reinforce more naive beliefs,innovative instruction can develop more expert-like beliefs, which in turn can promote learning.Over the last four years, the WISE Learning Tool has become an increasingly integralcomponent of the Chemical, Biological and Environmental Engineering (CBEE) curriculum atOSU, and has been integrated into the three courses
Conference Session
Thinking Outside the Box! Innovative Curriculum Exchange for K12 Engineering
Collection
2011 ASEE Annual Conference & Exposition
Authors
Lelli Van Den Einde, University of California, San Diego; Samuel Lee, University of California, San Diego
Tagged Divisions
K-12 & Pre-College Engineering
while othersencouraged students’ abstractions of lecture topics. In this way, activities in the program aremeant to stimulate students in a variety of ways and to be effective as a complete curriculum toaccommodate different personal learning styles.In addition to the experiential nature of the program, certain components are also developed toallow students to manipulate and understand course material through the solution of relevantengineering problems. Savery [3] describes Problem-Based Learning (PBL) as a “learner-centered approach that empowers learners to conduct research, integrate theory and practice, andapply knowledge and skills to develop a viable solution to a defined problem” (p. 9). Saveryalso describes an alternate description of
Conference Session
Thinking Outside the Box! Innovative Curriculum Exchange for K12 Engineering
Collection
2011 ASEE Annual Conference & Exposition
Authors
Michael K. Swanbom, Louisiana Tech University; David E. Hall, Louisiana Tech University; Heath Tims, Louisiana Tech University
Tagged Divisions
K-12 & Pre-College Engineering
capability while exploding in popularity. Most digital cameras provide for thecollection of digital video at a rate of 30 frames per second, and a new series of inexpensivecameras that can collect at much higher frame rates are beginning to hit the market. The videocapabilities of these cameras provide an effective method of acquiring position versus time data.Louisiana Tech University has partnered with three high schools in our region to develop aproject-based physics curriculum. One module of the curriculum involves an empirical analysisof falling body data to estimate the local gravitational acceleration. The project is designed sothat high school students collect video footage of the object against the backdrop of a lengthscale. Students
Conference Session
ECE Division Poster Session
Collection
2011 ASEE Annual Conference & Exposition
Authors
Mariusz Jankowski, University of Southern Maine
Tagged Divisions
Electrical and Computer
integrated within a leading mathematical software system. This paper describes how the new dynamicinteractivity language in addition to standard features built into Mathematica are being used in teaching selected sophomore andsenior undergraduate electrical engineering classes at the University of Southern Maine. It describes how several typical problemsencountered in integrating advanced computational systems into an undergraduate curriculum have been addressed. Particularattention will be paid to the creation and classroom use of demonstrations illustrating some core ideas such as convolution, filtering,and frequency response.IntroductionRecent advances in software technology in Mathematica, a leading mathematical software system from Wolfram
Conference Session
Thinking Outside the Box! Innovative Curriculum Exchange for K12 Engineering
Collection
2011 ASEE Annual Conference & Exposition
Authors
Nancy Healy, Georgia Institute of Technology; Joyce Palmer Allen, National Nanotechnology Infrastructure Network
Tagged Divisions
K-12 & Pre-College Engineering
committees and received numerous recognitions. She has a B.S., M.Ed and Ed.S in science education from Georgia Southern University. Page 22.671.1 c American Society for Engineering Education, 2011 Exchange – The NNIN Outreach Demonstration Guide: A set of nanotechnology demonstrations for upper elementary through high school.IntroductionThe National Nanotechnology Infrastructure Network is an integrated geographically-diversepartnership of 14 university-based laboratories supported by the National Science Foundation.Part of our mission is to provide education and outreach to a wide
Conference Session
New Faculty Development
Collection
2011 ASEE Annual Conference & Exposition
Authors
Craig J. Gunn, Michigan State University
Tagged Divisions
New Engineering Educators
technical courses. Vast numbers of articles and books have suggestedways to ensure that at least the outward look of a writer's effort conforms to acceptable norms.Classes are required, papers are assigned, some comments are voiced; but in so many cases the Page 22.1263.2retention of communication skill is not assured and does not become an integral part of theengineer's existence. Engineers need to understand the bond between their technical knowledge andtheir communication skills. This bond must be accomplished in the most efficient amount of time sothat it creates a lasting awareness of technical communication and its importance in every
Conference Session
WIED Poster Session
Collection
2011 ASEE Annual Conference & Exposition
Authors
Mara R. London, Gonzaga University; Jillian Rae Cadwell, Gonzaga University; Alexander Maxwell, Clarkson University
Tagged Divisions
Women in Engineering
engineeringIntroductionMultiple studies have documented that women value career paths that incorporate a clear socialpurpose and provide opportunities to help others1,2. Furthermore, studies have shown that thegeneral public does not view engineering as a discipline that plays a viable role in solving theproblems of society2,3.Currently, recruitment and retention of women pursing engineering degrees at GonzagaUniversity is in accord with the national average. Described here are efforts to recruit, retain, andattract additional female students through the on-going development of an independentengineering study abroad program in Africa that integrates engineering and social justiceprojects. The motivation to focus on a study abroad program as a recruitment and retention
Conference Session
Hardware Applications
Collection
2011 ASEE Annual Conference & Exposition
Authors
Gary Spivey, George Fox University
Tagged Divisions
Computers in Education
these systems. It has long been a desire of the department to see our students participatein these types of design/build experiences throughout the curriculum. Oregon State University(OSU) has been a pioneer in developing a “Platform for Learning2” using their TekBotsplatform3. The TekBots platform is an electronic robot vehicle that is built by every student inthe electrical engineering program at Oregon State University. The program sponsors state that“using a common platform throughout the curriculum helps to integrate the material fromseemingly disjointed courses4.” While the Oregon State University TekBots program provides amodel of a Platform for Learning, it is not necessarily a perfect platform for other Universities.The sponsors
Conference Session
Computers in Education Poster Session
Collection
2011 ASEE Annual Conference & Exposition
Authors
Frank T. Fisher, Stevens Institute of Technology; Hong Man, Stevens Institute of Technology
Tagged Divisions
Computers in Education
of engineering (forexample, academic research and/or industrial practice); 2) introduce undergraduates at theearliest stages to “real engineering” (again, either within the academic research environment orindustry); 3) develop a methodology and mechanism with which faculty can utilize multimediatechnology to further integrate their research and teaching efforts; and 4) demonstrate amethodology compatible with a growing a sustainable library of authentic engineeringexperiences for incorporation into the undergraduate curriculum. Such an approach could also bereadily adapted to provide virtual exposure of more authentic engineering activities such as co-op experiences and large-scale design projects earlier in the
Conference Session
Computer Science Applications
Collection
2011 ASEE Annual Conference & Exposition
Authors
Dan Li, Northern Arizona University
Tagged Divisions
Computers in Education
Practice-Oriented Approach to Teaching Undergraduate Data Mining CourseAbstract - Data mining is a fast-growing field of study in Computer Science andInformation Systems. Many schools have developed data mining course forundergraduate students. The course content has been well defined and streamlinedbecause of the availability of outstanding data mining textbooks. However, the focus ontheoretical contents of data mining makes it hard for undergraduate students to digest,and thus, compromises the overall learning outcome. To create an effective and dynamiclearning environment, we introduce a practice-oriented approach. This paper describeshow we integrate the hands-on component into the course work to enhance the
Conference Session
Computers in Education Poster Session
Collection
2011 ASEE Annual Conference & Exposition
Authors
Neelam Soundarajan, Ohio State University
Tagged Divisions
Computers in Education
somethingthat is tacked on as an additional component of the curriculum but is naturally integrated into the Page 22.1700.10activities of various related courses in the program and serves directly to support the student’slearning. Moreover, the student sees this activity of looking back at the work on related activitiesin earlier courses as directly helping master the knowledge and skills in the current course ratherthan as an additional activity distracting from his or her focus on the current course. Over time,reflection over earlier relevant activities becomes a natural part of the student’s intellectual makeup.It might be worth noting here